Simpang Borobudur no 27 Malang
0341-496949

Rev. Jusak Widjaja Hendra - WR Supratman 4 Sby

Jude 1:24-25
1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
1:25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.


The epistle of Jude refers to the covering of badger's skin in the pattern of Tabernacle, meaning the protection of God toward the true church as well as the separation with the false church. The true church and the false one will be separated as wheat is separated with tares. The false church that is as the tares seems faster in growth and higher than the true church or the wheat, but someday they will be separated. The wheat will enter into the barn because of prioritizing the Word and the tares will totally be burnt.

The end of the epistle of Jude is in the verse 24 and verse 25, namely about the seven appearances of the Lord Jesus as follows:
  1. He who is able to keep you from stumbling.
  2. He who presents us faultless before the presence of His glory.
  3. God who alone is wise.
  4. God our Savior.
  5. The Lord Jesus Christ.
  6. Being worthy of glory and majesty, dominion and power.
  7. Being eternal, both now and forever.
We reread Hebrews 13:8
13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

What can prove the eternality?

Hebrews 13:9a
13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines.

The eternality is proven with His teaching which never changes because the true teaching is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

We are studying about the earthquake causing the islands and mountains shake in devotion in Malang. There will be spiritual earthquake shaking the sons of God about the teaching. Nowadays the Lord shows Himself with the seven appearances up to the last one that He is the eternal God forever. The evidence is His everlasting teaching none may shake because it is the same yesterday, today, and forever. I hope we can understand.

We have heard about the seven appearances of Jesus as the seven lamps of golden candlestick or the seven lights of glory shone to the true church. The true church is protected and preserved or shone to undergo the seven spiritual growths until being perfect or shown as the golden candlestick. The seven Churches are shown as the seven lamps of candlestick. I hope we can understand.

We will learn about the seven spiritual growths in the system of Tabernacle as follows:

2 Peter 1: 5-7
1:5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
1:6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
1:7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

  1. FAITH.
    We have to have it first because our spirituality cannot grow without faith.
    The faith in Tabernacle refers to entering the gate of heavenly kingdom (http://www.gptkk.org/tabernacle_the+gate.html) or believing in Jesus.

    Romans 10:17
    10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Thus, the faith comes from hearing the Word of Christ or the Word in the anointing of Holy Spirit. The anointing of Holy Spirit cannot be limited by intelligence, time, et cetera. In the anointing of Holy Spirit, the congregation can hear the Word solemnly until there is belief or faith to the Word. We have to be alert with our manners in hearing the Word of God because it is the core if we want to pass through the gate.

    Luke 8:18
    8:18 "Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him."

    The time we hear the Word of God determines the growth of our spirituality toward perfection besides the time we pass through the gate. We cannot be perfect without hearing the Word. I hope we can understand.

    On the other hand, being bored, or sleepy or not solemn hearing the Word, what he seems to have will be taken from him. Meaning the faith is not added but decreased until someday there will be no faith anymore, he falls from the faith. There is no salvation because of going out of the gate of heaven. It is very horrible.

    Likewise, a pastor will preach the Word well if he is in the anointing of Holy Spirit. The congregation will neither understand nor believe the Word if the pastor preaches it based on knowledge or experience.

  2. VIRTUE.
    It refers to the Altar of Burnt Offering (http://www.gptkk.org/tabernacle_the+altar+of+burnt+offerings.html) in Tabernacle.
    It means good deeds related to the cross of Jesus or Christ's sacrifice. The good deeds are not ordinary deeds but they must be related to the cross. The good deed of Jesus is real through His death on the cross to redeem humans' sins. All Jesus' good deeds such as healing the sick people, et cetera would have been meaningless if there had been no His death on the cross. It has no meaning that a poor person can turn to rich person but s/he has to enter into the hell. Therefore, all things must be started or related to the cross.

    Likewise, our good deeds must be related to the cross. It means we repent, referring to the Altar of Burnt Offering. Our good deed God waits is repentance or stopping sinning to return to Him. Many people say that they do not need to believe in Jesus or to go to church because they always do something good. In fact, all good deeds, such as sacrificing or committing service to the Lord, without the repentance are vain or meaningless.

    Repenting, we are being increased until we can give. The repentance begins with throwing away the lies because one cannot repent even s/he does not want to repent because of keeping lies.

    Jeremiah 9:5
    9:5 Everyone will deceive his neighbor, And will not speak the truth; They have taught their tongue to speak lies; They weary themselves to commit iniquity.

    Liar is lazy to repent even does not want to repent until s/he is unable to repent as Satan because Satan is the father of liars. Repenting means confessing the sins and not repeating them after being forgiven. Therefore, there must be no lies in us, me first. This is the meaning of the virtue, namely repentance.

  3. Knowledge.
    2 Peter 1:5
    1:5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,

    It refer to the Brazen Laver in Tabernacle (http://www.gptkk.org/tabernacle_the+brazen+laver.html) or water baptism. It is the beginning of what we hear about Jesus' death and resurrection. What may we know as knowledge in the water baptism?

    Philippians 3:10-11
    3:10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
    3:11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.


    This is the knowledge, that is to say we know Jesus, who has died and risen. We know Jesus' death and resurrection through the water baptism. Thus, the water baptism is important. It is not a ceremony in church but our surrendering solemnly to Jesus, who has died and risen.

    Romans 6:4-5
    6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

    We have been united together in the likeness of His death and resurrection, meaning we experience the death through being dead to our old life or life in sins, and we experience the resurrection through having new life we get from the water baptism.

    We know His death and resurrection as well as we have to experience them because there are many Christians, including the priests, confessing in mouth only that they know Jesus but they refuse to hear God's Word or become sleepy hearing the Word whereas the faith comes by hearing the Word.

    What is the meaning of new life?
    It is heavenly life.
    We were born by our mothers to have worldly life in flesh and blood that is suitable to live in the world with the limit for some years and then we will be dead. We will live until Jesus comes a second time if God gives us mercy, and we will keep being with Him if He allows it to happen. Worldly life in flesh and blood is unable or not suitable to live in heaven.

    For example, we feel hungry in our flesh but we will never feel hungry in heaven, as well as we suffer pain in our flesh but there is no drug store in heaven.

    Therefore, we have to be reborn through water baptism or being reborn spiritually by God to become spiritual life suitable to live in heaven. We have known the kind of worldly life that likes to eat the food in the world, but what is the manner of heavenly life?

    Heavenly life begins with heart that has been changed.
    1 Peter 3:20-21
    3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
    3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


    New life or heavenly life has good conscience, namely obedience.
    On the contrary, worldly life in flesh and blood has disobedient heart for sure. Here are the examples of life in blood and flesh who is disobedient and rebels always:
    • Children do not obey their parents at home when their parents advise them, even they rebel the parents because of supposing that the parents are not modern.
    • Employees rebel in heart to the employer's order in the office.
    • Students will shout and protest when the teacher announces that there will be a test.

    Men like to rebel, beginning in the days of Noah, even there were no children's being saved because only four couples, referring to mature people who have gotten married, were saved. Children were not saved because their hearts were disobedient. Therefore, we have to be careful about the children. Parents have to pray seriously for them, and the Sunday school teachers do too.

    How can the children rebel? They do not want to hear the Word. They are quiet when someone tells them a story or fable but they will cry when the Word is preached. It is a kind of rebellion from the children, that is to say they do not want to hear the Word until they become disobedient. It is a serious matter. Parents have to pray for them seriously and surrender fully to God because it has been proven in the days of Noah that children did not want to hear the Word or they were disobedient.

    We will know whether our life is heavenly life or new life from the obedient heart or good conscience. The good conscience is a strong foundation whose functions are as follows:
    • To receive blessings from heaven, namely spiritual blessings and physical ones.
      Do not think about the blessings first but the foundation, namely obedient heart. We often say that we have not been blessed with money, or spouse but we should think about the foundation first. Having not strong foundation and forcing the blessings to come, both the aircraft/ the blessings and the foundation/ the person will be destroyed so all things become useless.

      Let us now not think about the blessings because the blessings are God's concerning. What we have to think first is the foundation, namely obedient heart as the strong foundation to receive God's blessings.

      A husband has to love the wife as the obedience to the Word as well as strong foundation. A husband has not had the foundation to receive the blessing from God if he does bitterly toward his wife because he does not obey the Word. Likewise, a wife has to submit her husband. We can imagine if a wife rebels her husband and God gives her blessings, that she will "kick" her husband. The wife must obey first. It means she has strong foundation and then spiritual blessings and physical blessings will come.

      The strong foundation is not only to become the place of an aircraft for landing but also for the second function as follows.

    • To become a place of an aircraft for taking off.
      Meaning the strong foundation will orbit us or lift us up so we are employed or lifted up by God day by day. There is no need of human's orbiting in God's employment.

      Fellow servants of God, we need no politics to get position in organization. Let God lift us up in His employment toward us as long as we have the strong foundation, namely good conscience. We are lifted up continually until someday we are glorified in the world and lifted up to reach the throne of God. Being orbited by human, one will fall. God's employment depends on the strong foundation, namely good conscience, and we will be with Him forever. I hope we can understand.

      In shorts, the water baptism is to know Jesus' death and resurrection, so we are dead to old live and we are resurrected in new life.
      What is the meaning of the new life? It is heavenly life, beginning from changed heart to become good conscience.

  4. Self control.
    2 Peter 1:6
    1:6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,

    It refers to the Door of Tabernacle (http://www.gptkk.org/tabernacle_door+of+tabernacle.html), referring to the anointing or the fullness of Holy Spirit. Only Holy Spirit can control our flesh because we are flesh and blood humans who are full of lusts, emotion, ambition, et cetera, which will burst someday. We may see a person with quiet character but someday there will be an explosion because s/he cannot control herself/himself. Only Holy Spirit can control our flesh so we can control ourselves.

    Here are the examples of controlling our flesh:
    • We can get angry but we can control our anger.
    • We have our own will but we can control it because we have Holy Spirit. We can wait the time to buy something when we have not had the money yet. If we cannot control the will, we will owe or do anything to get what we want. I hope we can understand.

    Romans 8:6
    8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    Holy Spirit kills carnal will, which is death. Thus, Holy Spirit kills the flesh will so we can receive the will of God although it is contrary to our flesh will or it hurts our flesh.

    The Lord Jesus prayed in Gethsemane and there was an angel coming to strengthen Him. The angel refers to Holy Spirit.
    Jesus' will in His flesh was obvious in His saying "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me;" that He did not want to be crucified because it would hurt His flesh and He had no sin at all. Holy Spirit worked and he could say "nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
    Our flesh will must be killed or thrown away although our flesh is hurt, in order to do the will of God. I hope we can understand.

    Controlling ourselves so we can do the will of God, we can live in peace. On the contrary, there will be no peace following the flesh will, even spiritual death will come.

    In addition, there are carnal deeds Holy Spirit must kill so we can receive the will of God and live in peace.

    Romans 8:13
    8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

    Galatians 5:19-21
    5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
    5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
    5:21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Idol may be in statue or charm to create salvation or riches. Modern idol may be something hindering us to commit service to God or to pray.

    Sorcery can be in the form or predictions like horoscope.

    Drunkenness begins with smoking, and consuming narcotics. All of them can be killed only by Holy Spirit.

    "will not inherit the kingdom of God" means perdition in epistle Romans.

    Let us now control ourselves as follows:
    • Flesh wills such as emotion, and ambition can be limited and killed by Holy Spirit, so we can live in peace.
    • Flesh deeds such as fornication, idolatry, sorcery, envy, et cetera, are killed so we can live eternally together with the Lord. I hope we can understand.

  5. Perseverance.
    2 Peter 1:6
    1:6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,

  6. Godliness.
    It means committing service or bringing ourselves to come to God.
    The fifth is combined with the sixth, namely perseverance and godliness or perseverance in godliness, that is to say perseverance in committing service to God.

    This is the spiritual growth we get when God shines us with the seven lights of glory. We get the spiritual growth as follows:
    • Repenting or entering water baptism. We have new life and good conscience or obedience.
    • We have the fullness of Holy Spirit or the anointing of Holy Spirit, referring to the Door of Tabernacle, so we can kill our flesh will and flesh deeds.
    • We persevere committing our godliness.

    This is the real spiritual growth. Do not measure the spiritual growth by ourselves. I often hear someone's saying that s/he has grown in her/his spirituality. How can one grow if s/he is often absent in church or sleepy hearing the Word? One sign of the spiritual growth is faith by hearing the Word.

    In addition, do not measure the spiritual growth from the quantity of the ministry. The righteous or natural spiritual growth begins with hearing the Word. We have to pass the Gate first. It refers to the faith. Martha was busy serving the Lord but He said that she had anxiety. On the contrary, Mary only sat at Jesus' feet to hear the Word but He said that she had chosen the best part. Afterward, we repent and have water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism until we persevere committing our services to the Lord.

    Such is the righteous spiritual growth and it must begin in a pastor first. How is the growth of his faith? Is he bored of preaching the Word or committing three main services to the Lord in perseverance? There is sign of spiritual growth if he has perseverance.

    Likewise, there will be spiritual growth of the congregation when they have perseverance. Once again, I give thanks that we have the teaching Word, so we can understand clearly.

    Perseverance means all things are done continually, being unwilling to be hindered by anything to reach final purpose. Our final purpose is perfection to become the Bride of God or New Jerusalem. Do not want to be hindered about it.

    The perseverance in service to the Lord or being shepherded in the Holy Place of Tabernacle, in which there are three equipments, refers to the perseverance committing three main services to the Lord as follows:
    Satan always hinders us so we do not persevere or we do not serve God. It has happened in Old Testament and now Satan still uses the same way.
    Israelites were slaves in Egypt and they were commanded to make bricks to build Pithom and Raamses. They were given the straw to make the brick until Moses went to Pharaoh and said to Him to set the Israelites free to serve God in the wilderness. As soon as he heard it, he got angry and ordered to make the burden of Israelites heavier. The quota of brick they had to make was still same but they had to seek the straw by themselves. Meaning the facilities were made decreased but the need was still same even increased so the Israelites could not be free from the slavery to serve God. It is the old trick of Satan.

    Likewise, Satan hinders us with the same trick in the last days so we cannot serve God. The facilities are decreased but the need increases. The prices of many things are higher so the sons of God or the servants of God cannot serve God freely because of seeking the daily life needs until someday economy is ruled by antichrist entirely. Many people do not want to serve God because of seeking worldly things and they will worship antichrist.

    We have many necessities even they increase while there are many difficulties to get the facilities. Let us now keep our perseverance committing the service and ministry seriously.

    Hebrews 10:35-36
    10:35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
    10:36 For you
    have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

    There are many necessities of the sons or the servants of God nowadays while the facilities are difficult to get but the main necessity is the endurance/perseverance because we find the promise of God in the perseverance. It is the promise to preserve our life in the world until He comes a second time so we get eternal life together with Him.

    Do not be fooled by Satan because he perverts our condition, so we are made race to hunt the daily life needs until we cannot persevere. Consequently, all things will be used up even we lose both the present life and the eternal one. In such condition, Satan claps his hands. This is the trick of Satan, therefore we have to be very serious because the perseverance is very useful to help us. All we need become God's concerning and He works through our perseverance. I hope we can understand.

  7. Love.
    2 Peter 1:7
    1:7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

    The brotherly kindness and the love are the perfect love, including the love to enemy.
    We still choose in our brotherly kindness, whether s/he is one tribe or one family or one church with us or not, but it must be continued with the love to all people, including to enemy.

    Matthew 5:43-45
    5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
    5:44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
    5:45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

    This is the perfect love, namely the love as the sun which God gives to good people and to the bad or sinful ones.

    One practice of loving our enemy is we can pray for them that they can be forgiven and blessed by God. It is also the kind of our spiritual growth. We often measure the spiritual growth with our capability in preaching the Word but it is not the measurement. The measurement of the spiritual growth begins with our faith up to our love, that we can love our enemy and there is no strife. We have had the faith, the virtue, the knowledge, the self-control, the perseverance and godliness, and the love. It means we know Jesus in His glory shining us with the seven lights of glory or Jesus as Heavenly Bridegroom.
2 Peter 1:8
1:8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Bride tidings shining us must be practiced through having the faith up to the love.

If we are shined with the seven lights of glory, our spirituality will increase, beginning with the faith. It is increased to become the virtue, up to the love.

The results we will get if our spirituality increases is as follows:
  • We will get the love as the sun or the perfect love from Heavenly Bridegroom which will become a shield protecting and preserving us.

    Psalm 84:11
    84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; The LORD will give grace and glory; No good thing will He withhold From those who walk uprightly.

    Wearing the shield, one will be protected from all weapons miraculously because we get the sun miraculously from God. We know nothing and the sun always rises for us.

    We may have nothing but we can be preserved because of God's miracle. Do not be afraid because as long as we can see the sun rising we can have the protection and preservation of God in our growing spiritual life.

  • The goodness and grace of God that are as the sun help us from all problems. As long as the sun keeps rising in the earth, the help of God is there for us even when we face impossible matters.

  • The glory of God that is as the sun changes or renews our life.
Let us now have the love as the sun as follows:
  1. Hearing the Word earnestly.
  2. Repenting until we can be obedient.
  3. Being baptized of water and of Holy Spirit until we can control ourselves and persevere committing three main services in shepherding.
  4. Loving God or having the love of Heavenly Bridegroom, so we have guarantee for our life.
The meaning of the love as the sun is as follows:
  1. The shield of God's protection and preservation.
  2. The mercy and goodness of God to help us from all problems even the impossible one.
  3. God's glory changing our life.
Revelation 1:16
1:16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Jesus' face shines as the sun. We will also be changed, beginning with our face or five senses, two of which are ears and mouth, so we will never become deaf and dumb.

The ears are shined by the sun or the light of God's glory until there is renewal to ears that can hear the Word, and we become obedient.
The mouth is renewed so we can confess our sins, bear witness, and worship God.

If the ears and mouth become good, God will be able to make everything good in our life until we can become perfect as Jesus is.

Mark 7:37
7:37 And they were astonished beyond measure, saying, "He has done all things well. He makes both the deaf to hear and the mute to speak."

The ears are renewed to be obedient, and the mouth is renewed from mouth which likes to blame other people and to say corrupt words to mouth which confesses sins, bears witness, and worships God. The deaf and the mute can be renewed and God is able to make all things good. Our future life, marriage, and job are good, until we have the best thing when Jesus comes a second time, that is to say we are renewed to become same with Him. We are perfect to welcome His second coming. I hope we can understand.

Let the light of glory makes our spirituality grow until we get the love as the sun through praying for other people hurting our heart, loving all people, even our enemy.
God is with us as long as the sun keeps rising. Hallelujah.

God blesses you.1



Print Version

Transcript
  • General Service in Malang, January 24, 2016 (Sunday Morning)
    ... grease the eyes so we can see the anointing of Holy Spirit. Matthew - Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust destroys and ...
  • Bible Study Service in Malang, August 11, 2011 (Thursday Evening)
    ... is not of nation or tribe. The nation and tribe also point to the world. In short being redeemed of every nation and tribe means being redeemed of the world with all its influences. The world is full of amenities sorrow activities et cetera which make us unfaithful in doing ...
  • General Service in Malang, December 04, 2022 (Sunday Morning)
    ... and marble and cinnamon and incense fragrant oil and frankincense wine and oil fine flour and wheat cattle and sheep horses and chariots and bodies and souls of men. The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you and all the things which are rich and splendid have ...
  • General Service in Malang, June 16, 2019 (Sunday Morning)
    ... And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. The sixth condemnation of Son of God over men will happen that one third of men in the earth will die because of a great war. There are four horns of the golden altar ...
  • Youth Service in Malang, October 01, 2011 (Saturday Evening)
    ... trumpet it is the mark that all property rights must be returned. The trumpet is the hard Teaching Word sharper than any two-edged sword. Ezekiel - . Again the word of the LORD came to me saying Son of man speak to the children of your people and say to them ...
  • Bible Study Service in Malang, July 20, 2021 (Tuesday Evening)
    ... serve was with rigor. Pithom means being surrounded as with a shield or bound by Satan. The brick is also used for building Babel or the false church. Genesis - . Then they said to one another Come let us make bricks and bake them thoroughly. They had brick for ...
  • General Service in Malang, October 06, 2013 (Sunday Morning)
    ... that is sharper than any two-edged sword and able to sanctify and cut the sins. The Word will also renew us little by little to become spiritual man as Jesus. Life renewal is started from mouth senses that does not lie. Let yes be yes and no be no . ...
  • General Service in Malang, October 16, 2016 (Sunday Morning)
    ... Heaven in the midst of the crooked evil and unclean world. We must also experience the crucifixion of the flesh so we can live in the ambience of the throne of Heaven in the midst of the crooked evil and unclean world. Sometime we will also be lifted up to ...
  • Bible Study Service in Malang, March 02, 2017 (Thursday Evening)
    ... - Behold the LORD'S hand is not shortened That it cannot save Nor His ear heavy That it cannot hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God And your sins have hidden His face from you So that He will not hear. For your hands are defiled with ...
  • Bible Study Service in Malang, November 01, 2012 (Thursday Evening)
    ... say to Archippus Take heed to the ministry which you have received in the Lord that you may fulfill it. We must make effort to serve and minister to God until the end line. Corinthians And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do ...

Live Streaming

Live Streaming of GPTKK

Recording

Follow our recording service

Transcript

Sermon Summary

Testimony

Lfe experience with the Word of God

Sermon transcript from church service in Malang and Surabaya, preached by Pastor Widjaja Hendra.

Contact to info@gptkk.org if you have any questions or if you want to subscribe Manna magazine, dan contact to widjaja_h@yahoo.com if you want to have a private consultation with our pastor.